Paula Vennells cries and denies conspiracy as she is confronted at Post Office inquiry – live | Post Office Horizon scandal

“Who did you think was doing the investigating” Paula Vennells is asked, as she is shown minutes of a meeting in 2008 where she is being briefed about Post Office investigators. Jason Beer KC is trying to draw out of Vennells how she can maintain she did not know about the prosecuting powers until later when she must have known the Post Office employed investigators.

Paula Vennells agress that when she joined the Post Office she had “no understanding of the board’s responsibility for the oversight of criminal investigations process, and nor did in fact, you appreciate you say even that it brought its own prosecution assessment is that right?”

She goes on to say that “When I joined, I was not aware that there were differences in terms of the different nations in the UK having different approaches to that.”

In England and Wales the Post Office acted as prosecutor, but in Scotland it was the procurators fiscal who did so under Post Office advice. Scottish subpostmasters have their own legal representation at the inquiry who may question Vennells during the course of this week. Previous witness appearances have established that the corporate centre of the Post Office, based in England, did not appear to have anybody who specialised or had trained in the law of Scotland.

Jason Beer KC is asking Paula Vennells whether she prioritised brand and reputation over the subpostmasters’ suffering. “Were you preoccupied with the notion of protecting public money?” he asks.

Jason Beer KC says he now wants to move on to the nature of memory in the witness statements of Paula Vennells.

He says “Why is it that in your witness statements when you refer to a recollection of a conversation that’s unlimited or undocumented, not referred to in any email, there are always things that exculpate you, that reduce your blameworthiness.

She says “that isn’t the approach I’ve taken.”

Beer continues “Some might say that that has been the same approach by others who have given evidence in the inquiry. They have great difficulty in remembering things unless it paints them in a favourable light.”

Vennells says “My approach to this is, I hope, with integrity.”

Those of you who have been watching the inquiry for any length of time will appreciate the slight exasperation in Beer’s voice here, as the evidence has been littered with people insisting they do not recall meetings or conversations, did not read emails or documents sent to them, or did not understand the functions of parts of the business that they were responsible for.

Beer is now turning to ask about Vennells’ experience when she was recruited into the role of CEO at the Post Office.

Paula Vennells tells the inquiry that all she was trying to do in 2013 after Martin Griffiths took his own life was “to get the wider picture and not to be able to understand particularly the very difficult challenges that Mr Bates had levelled at some Post Office colleagues.”

In a letter to Post Office executives Alan Bates had said Griffiths attempting suicide was a “prime example of the thuggery being exerted on defenceless subpostmasters … by arrogant and uncontrolled Post Office personnel”.

Jane Croft

Paula Vennells is arguing that at the time of the death of Martin Griffiths, who took his own life, it was “unhelpful” that Alan Bates and the Justice For Subpostmaster Alliance were apportioning blame.

Vennells says Bates was “rightly very, very angry about this” but “I wanted to both understand and care for Post Office colleagues, but also the relationship with Alan because we were in the process of trying to work with Alan and Second Sight on some of the issues.”

The documentation that Jason Beer KC is showing are emails within the Post Office trying to establish if there were “other factors” in the death of Griffiths.

Vennells is shown that at one point she wrote “Can you let me know what background we have on Martin, and how and why this might have happened. I had heard, but have yet to see a formal report. that there were previous mental health issues, and potential family issues.”

She says to the inquiry “I had as chief executive to pass this information on to group executive board colleagues. Mr Bates had said that the post office was to blame …”

She tails off and there is a long pause before she says “It doesn’t matter. I simply should not have said it. I shouldn’t have used these words.”

The Communication Workers Union has posted to social media to contrast Paula Vennells crying at the inquiry with a previous lack of concern. It wrote:

No tears when postmasters were tragically taking their own lives due to stress. No tears when postmasters were being jailed. No tears when postmasters had their whole communities turning against them. Tears now are too late. Paula Vennells must be held to account.

Paula Vennells says she is sorry about Martin Griffiths, and that “just sounds too shallow”. There is a long pause while Vennells cries at this point.

She says “Every email you will see from me about Mr. Griffiths I start with him and how he was, or his family. The Post Office took far too long to deal with it.”

Jason Beer KC is now looking at correspondence surrounding the death of Martin Griffiths. He was a subpostmaster who took his own life after he had been pursued for a supposed shortfall amounting to £100,000 at his post office in Cheshire, which had also been the location of an armed raid.

Jason Beer KC has asked if there was any system in place for the board to be informed if a criminal or civil case was not successful. Paula Vennells said reports of that nature never came to board level. “I don’t believe there was [a system],” she says, “and there should have been.”

Beer is trying to find out where Vennells got her 100% success claim from. She says it is important to remember that at the time she did not think it was false information.

“It must be clear I’m not implying anything here at all in terms of Susan Crichton,” says Vennells, before pretty much implying it was Crichton’s fault that Vennells presented false information to MPs.

The inquiry has resumed its morning session. I’ll bring you key lines as they emerge.

Vennells weeps at Post Office Horizon IT inquiry having said she saw no signs of a ‘conspiracy’

In her short statement at the start of the hearing, Paula Vennells made reference to victim impact statements heard by the inquiry. Here is a video of some of them put together by the inquiry.

Chair Wyn Williams complains something is dripping on him in the Aldwych hearing room. Jason Beer KC quips that he doesn’t think it is acceptable for the chair to be water-tortured during the hearing and they opt to take a break. It is a timely moment for Paula Vennells, who appeared to start crying as it was being put to her that she had misled MPs in 2012 about the Post Office’s 100% success rate with convictions in cases involving the Horizon IT system.

Paula Vennells disagrees with evidence Jason Beer KC reads out from Alisdair Cameron, Post Office group chief financial officer, who said that he believed that even when she left the Post Office in 2019 Vennells “did not believe that there had been any miscarriages of justice.”

She is being pressed on having said to MPs in 2012 “every case taken to prosecution that involves the Horizon system thus far has found in favour of the Post Office.”

Beer lists a number of acquittals prior to that date.

Vennells is emotional for the first time visibly, and says “The Post Office knew that. I completely accept that. Personally I didn’t know that. And I’m incredibly sorry.”

She is now being taken to a briefing pack she was given ahead of that meeting. Beer is asking where in the pack did it say any of the things Vennells had said in the meeting.